Oh, a difficult one Katja. I think the key facet, as you highlight, is the range of experiences. Even for us on our island it must have been a day of conflicted emotions. Celebrating the end of the war in Europe, yet mourning for the deaths and coming to terms with the physically and mentally wounded. And of course the war in the Far East was still raging. On the European continent the liberated Western European nations had got on with the business of recovering from occupation; celebrating, rebuilding, and let’s not forget meting out retribution to those who collaborated. In Eastern Europe one occupier was replaced by another, perhaps not as organisationally brutal. And having fought the Nazis was no guarantee of a welcome in Soviet occupied Eastern Europe. Liberated Jews discovered there was no welcome for them in much of old Eastern Europe. And then there is the DPs. Perhaps Germany should celebrate the progress made since Stunde Null, acknowledging the division but highlight the growth. But, hey what do I know?
My humble opinion is to leave it as a solemn day and a reminder of what fascism can become when one follows a delusional leader. In Russia it has been a national holiday for 80 years. Putin has taken this and used it as a warped excuse of his barbaric war against Ukraine.
An informative and revealing review of the various perspectives on the end of WW II in Europe, although I’m less concerned by how Germany remembers a particular date in history, or what they call it, than I am about what Germany has learned from the past and how that shapes their view of the present and the future. For example, what lessons have been learned from the events of May 8, 1945, that will continue to shape a more democratic and unified Germany today? The more a stable and unified Germany contributes to a unified, diplomatic, and prosperous Europe in the present, the less relevant the memory of May 8, 1945, becomes.
Well for me it’s relatively simple. The one certainly on this planet is we as individual countries will continue, as night follows day, to commit atrocities against other countries/peoples/each other. We shouldn’t kid ourselves picking choice moments in history when a modicum of reasonable behaviour prevailed. There should be no reason to foist the Allies version of Victory/Liberation day on Germany, that is a correct celebration for the Allies. But Germany should celebrate the day the Nazi regime fell. Equally important is Germany should celebrate and be upheld as the nation who learned and displayed atonement for the atrocities. This way other nations can learn how to do it, when their turn comes round again. Even in the 21st century Germany is behaving in a better way than most dealing with its legacy in South West Africa. It’s only taken around 100 years to do this, unlike UK taking give or take 200 years; nor is a couple of statues into the harbour sufficient. Ask how Japan has atoned for WW2 throughout the many countries it invaded - some would say very poorly. Germany must just work out what to call the day.
“Freedom Day” sounds good to me, and perhaps “Freedom Day 2” for when the Soviets left?
That's a rather pessimistic world view? I also think the Second World War and the Holocaust were singular events. One of the reasons the Cold War stayed cold, in my view, was that the horrors of hyper-industrialised warfare and the nuclear bomb being dropped on Japan were fresh on everyone's mind.
Never a truer word said „ the end of the war was at different times and in different guises „ 👏, I often think about Poland in this way with the end of WW2 then straight into Soviet occupation, albeit they weren’t the only ones but their history from 1920 onwards is grim ,
Guten Morgen 🌞 Frau Hoyer, Natürlich ist der richtige Ausdruck obwohl die propagierte ‚neue“ Erinnerungskultur der AfD dem entgegen wirkt. Ich kann das Verdrängen meiner Eltern an die Nazi Zeit noch spüren! Nur nicht drüber reden….Leider sehe ich das heute noch weit verbreitet. Viele meiner Bekannten und Freunde in Deutschland wissen mit dem Datum im Mai gar nichts anzufangen. Das erklärt vieles!
Ich sehe das etwas anders. Natürlich eignet sich der 8. Mai, um an das Kriegsende zu erinnern, aber als universeller Feiertag ist er schwierig. Er hat in der deutschen Geschichte eine andere Bedeutung als in der britischen, amerikanischen, polnischen etc.
Ja, das ist sicherlich richtig. Waere es nicht umso wichtiger das zu aendern? Es scheint das die Verdraengung oder Ignoranz der Verbrechen unserer Vorfahren sich durch Generationen von unseren Landsleuten zieht. Uebrigens, lese ich gerade ihr neustes Buch und gerade unter dem Aspekt ist mir diese Anziehingskraft der neuen Rechten schleierhaft. Es scheint sich alles zu wiederholen.
Oh, a difficult one Katja. I think the key facet, as you highlight, is the range of experiences. Even for us on our island it must have been a day of conflicted emotions. Celebrating the end of the war in Europe, yet mourning for the deaths and coming to terms with the physically and mentally wounded. And of course the war in the Far East was still raging. On the European continent the liberated Western European nations had got on with the business of recovering from occupation; celebrating, rebuilding, and let’s not forget meting out retribution to those who collaborated. In Eastern Europe one occupier was replaced by another, perhaps not as organisationally brutal. And having fought the Nazis was no guarantee of a welcome in Soviet occupied Eastern Europe. Liberated Jews discovered there was no welcome for them in much of old Eastern Europe. And then there is the DPs. Perhaps Germany should celebrate the progress made since Stunde Null, acknowledging the division but highlight the growth. But, hey what do I know?
One of the historians suggested something along those lines, as in celebrating the process rather than a specific date.
"DPs"? ('scuse my ignorance!)
Displaced Persons.
That’s it.
Ta!
My humble opinion is to leave it as a solemn day and a reminder of what fascism can become when one follows a delusional leader. In Russia it has been a national holiday for 80 years. Putin has taken this and used it as a warped excuse of his barbaric war against Ukraine.
Well, and for Russia this is a day of victory, not liberation. I just don't see how you'd ever be able to have a universal memory of it.
An informative and revealing review of the various perspectives on the end of WW II in Europe, although I’m less concerned by how Germany remembers a particular date in history, or what they call it, than I am about what Germany has learned from the past and how that shapes their view of the present and the future. For example, what lessons have been learned from the events of May 8, 1945, that will continue to shape a more democratic and unified Germany today? The more a stable and unified Germany contributes to a unified, diplomatic, and prosperous Europe in the present, the less relevant the memory of May 8, 1945, becomes.
I mostly agree but I don't think pinning such lessons on that date helps. It's ironically one that Germany had very little agency over.
Your article ( and the Spectator link in it) are very good. History is never black and white.
Thank you!
Well for me it’s relatively simple. The one certainly on this planet is we as individual countries will continue, as night follows day, to commit atrocities against other countries/peoples/each other. We shouldn’t kid ourselves picking choice moments in history when a modicum of reasonable behaviour prevailed. There should be no reason to foist the Allies version of Victory/Liberation day on Germany, that is a correct celebration for the Allies. But Germany should celebrate the day the Nazi regime fell. Equally important is Germany should celebrate and be upheld as the nation who learned and displayed atonement for the atrocities. This way other nations can learn how to do it, when their turn comes round again. Even in the 21st century Germany is behaving in a better way than most dealing with its legacy in South West Africa. It’s only taken around 100 years to do this, unlike UK taking give or take 200 years; nor is a couple of statues into the harbour sufficient. Ask how Japan has atoned for WW2 throughout the many countries it invaded - some would say very poorly. Germany must just work out what to call the day.
“Freedom Day” sounds good to me, and perhaps “Freedom Day 2” for when the Soviets left?
Congratulations Germany!
That's a rather pessimistic world view? I also think the Second World War and the Holocaust were singular events. One of the reasons the Cold War stayed cold, in my view, was that the horrors of hyper-industrialised warfare and the nuclear bomb being dropped on Japan were fresh on everyone's mind.
"The one certainly on this planet . . .";
My dictionary defines atrocity as, 'an extremely wicked or cruel act, typically one involving physical violence injury'.
I wonder if you would be so kind as to provide a list of such extremely wicked acts committed by the BRD since it foundation in 1949?
It was just a general catch-all view with the key point to avoid cherrypicking “moments in history when a modicum of reasonable behaviour prevailed.”
Thank you for the clarification; I quite understand. I was relying on the OED definition of certainty as, 'a fact or thing certain or sure'. Silly me.
Never a truer word said „ the end of the war was at different times and in different guises „ 👏, I often think about Poland in this way with the end of WW2 then straight into Soviet occupation, albeit they weren’t the only ones but their history from 1920 onwards is grim ,
Guten Morgen 🌞 Frau Hoyer, Natürlich ist der richtige Ausdruck obwohl die propagierte ‚neue“ Erinnerungskultur der AfD dem entgegen wirkt. Ich kann das Verdrängen meiner Eltern an die Nazi Zeit noch spüren! Nur nicht drüber reden….Leider sehe ich das heute noch weit verbreitet. Viele meiner Bekannten und Freunde in Deutschland wissen mit dem Datum im Mai gar nichts anzufangen. Das erklärt vieles!
Ich sehe das etwas anders. Natürlich eignet sich der 8. Mai, um an das Kriegsende zu erinnern, aber als universeller Feiertag ist er schwierig. Er hat in der deutschen Geschichte eine andere Bedeutung als in der britischen, amerikanischen, polnischen etc.
Ja, das ist sicherlich richtig. Waere es nicht umso wichtiger das zu aendern? Es scheint das die Verdraengung oder Ignoranz der Verbrechen unserer Vorfahren sich durch Generationen von unseren Landsleuten zieht. Uebrigens, lese ich gerade ihr neustes Buch und gerade unter dem Aspekt ist mir diese Anziehingskraft der neuen Rechten schleierhaft. Es scheint sich alles zu wiederholen.
I'm not sure on this but surely that day was designated as part of a growing Cold War.
That certainly adds layers of complexity when it comes to the memory of that date.